EP 07: How To Build Scalable Operations And Focus On Your Zone Of Genius

Transcript

How to Build Scalable Operations So That You Go Back to Your Zone of Genius

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Alex Ivanoff

All right, welcome to the next episode of Mission Control. I am your co-host, Alex Ivanoff, with my co-host and partner, Dave Pancham. Today, we have Deacon Bradley, who is an ops specialist and Guru. And we're so excited to have him on, me in particular. Deacon, we were just talking, you know, I'm an ops person at heart. So super excited to get to talk to you today. Welcome.

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Deacon Bradley  

Awesome, I'm super excited to be here.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Awesome! We got to chat with you a couple of weeks ago, to get to know you a little bit. Actually, our former guest, Bryan Starck was kind enough to introduce you to us and we were super lucky to get to meet you and learn a little about you, but tell the audience what you do and what you specialize in.

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Deacon Bradley  

I help founders and CEOs get out of the day-to-day weeds and get their business back into growth mode. Business owners feel it when they're holding back from growth because of operations. And that's the type of problems that I help them work through. So I specialize in the operation side of the business. So these are businesses that have their products and marketing figured out, for the most part. And they just want to go faster and try to figure out how to do more of what they already know how to do.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Awesome. I think you said on your website that you take a fractional COO position for some companies, and you also advise others on operations. Tell us a little bit about what you're currently working on, how did you get into this? What does your daily life look like?

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Deacon Bradley  

It's interesting. There's lots of accidental entrepreneurs, I guess I might be one of them. This is not a bland career path. But essentially, I used to be a software developer. And long story short, I learned that to sell the software I had built, I had to learn marketing. And so I got into marketing. And believe it or not, marketing and software are not that far apart these days. So really, a lot of skills crossed over there. And I ended up starting a marketing agency that was acquired by a larger one. And so I ended up taking over kind of all the day-to-day operations and having to learn all that stuff.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Nice. What kind of software were you building when you first were getting out of college?

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Deacon Bradley  

It was like PipeDrive, if you're familiar with that. And crossfit gym, something really niche.

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Dave Pancham  

Wow!

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Deacon Bradley  

Here's a pro tip that I learned the hard way by building that; it's really important to know your market and what they value. And what I learned that crossfit gym owners do not value lead generation the way a lot of businesses we're all familiar with probably do. They were like "Oh, you pay for the leads? I don't know." So that was a hard lesson learned and a not very profitable software business.

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Dave Pancham  

You said that marketing and software are not that far apart. Can you expand on that?

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Deacon Bradley  

One of the most important skills in software development is debugging. So you write all this code, and then you’re like, “Oh this is not working, something is broken, but where?” And a lot of those skills are transferred directly over to “My marketing isn't working, but which part?” And that's a skill that people are lacking sometimes when they're hyper-focused on those end metrics such as how much revenue did my marketing generate? That's all they can see. There's a lot of little pieces along that chain of events that created that end result. That's where I see a lot of similarities. And then the other side of it is tracking, automation, analytics, all of these stuff, which I just happened to work on in software anyway.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Right, Both software and marketing are very data-driven for sure. You mentioned that you started your own agency and eventually sold it. I believe that was Funnel Owl, correct?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yes.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Tell us about that. What was that all about? And what did you learn from it?

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Deacon Bradley  

I started Funnel Owl in 2015-ish, if I remember the dates correctly. I only focused on Facebook and Instagram marketing. And that got acquired by another company who basically just did that only at a much larger scale. And one of the biggest things that I learned from that is; when Funnel Owl was acquired, it was not a huge business by any stretch. I had one full time employee and a number of contractors that helped me get through stuff. It wasn't a big thing. That was a pure talent acquisition. The business that acquired mine took my clients over and all that but that wasn't a huge win for them. What they wanted was how I ran my business and the people that I had involved there. So one of the big things that I learned is that getting results yourself is one thing, but getting results through other people is the next level. So there's these two phases of the business, the “I'm doing the thing” and then the “somebody else is doing the thing,” and that's an exciting transition.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Would you say that they wanted your operations?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, 100%. They were really clear about that. We spent a lot of time in the due diligence phase going through my operations and their operations and how I would scale their operations and all the pains they were experiencing. I guess this was my first operations consulting job, so to speak.

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Alex Ivanoff  

And was that your indicator to then become an operations consultant?

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Deacon Bradley  

I didn't even think that. I was so focused on marketing and just having fun that it was probably years later that I realized this. Are you familiar with the concept of the zone of genius? Turns out, operations is my zone of genius. A lot of times when you're in your zone of genius, you're unaware of it. I've been running my own company and then I stepped into this other company. It wasn't great, but you know what? It wasn't the worst operation I'd ever seen. So I took over that and did what I did and I was unaware of what I was good at. Now working in this other agency, hundreds of businesses were coming through as clients and that's when I started opening my eyes and just seeing inside all of these other businesses. So I guess that awareness developed over the years of working behind the scenes with other business leaders.

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Alex Ivanoff  

A good analogy for this is the same reason Michael Jordan couldn't play baseball, because his zone of genius was basketball, and he didn't really acknowledge that until he went and tried baseball for a year or two and kind of sucked at it. So, you sell Funnel Owl, and you're working for the other agency, how did what you're doing now get started? 

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Deacon Bradley  

When you work at a paid traffic agency, people only come to you for one thing, and that is, of course, paid traffic. If you go through my personality profile, one of my strengths is that I'm a maximizer. I like to take things that are working, and maximize them. And one of the frictions I was experiencing personally was that businesses would come in thinking that no matter what their problem is, they need more traffic, more marketing, and that was a little bit frustrating because there was a huge percentage of clients where they had other limitations, other problems that should be fixed. Marketing was probably not where I would focus on. I was like; “Gosh, if they just focused on this, things would be better for them.” So, the thing was stepping away from this label of “marketing agency” or “paid traffic agency”, and putting on a more general label like “Operations consultant” that freed me up to help in other areas where they needed. People were open to that because they didn't come to me just for traffic.

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Dave Pancham  

It's so funny because I hear the mantra “Sales cures all”.

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Alex Ivanoff  

I was thinking the same thing. I mean, it's kind of relatable.

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Deacon Bradley  

Well, it's funny too because yes, sales cures all, but it has scoped down to “traffic cures all”, and that's very different. Yeah, people are walking by your store at the mall, but does that make your store more profitable? No. There's a lot of other stuff to it, post-operations, sales, product selection, and how much you're paying for rent and employees. So yeah, sales are definitely important, and that's what you should be focusing on if you're under $1 million. 1-5, I would probably still be heavily focused on it but I wouldn't be so myopic and think that sales is just performance marketing.

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Alex Ivanoff  

This is interesting because I think Dave and I could benefit from your advice on this too, because once you start crossing a certain revenue threshold, it's gonna be a little bit different for every industry, but when you start, you just need sales, right? Otherwise, you don't have a business. Then you hit a certain revenue threshold and you still want to keep growing and still keep getting those sales but now you have to focus on the operation. Like you said, you still have to make sure the sales are coming in and the growth is coming in. What do you say to those people who want to focus on both? Because you talk about it in Sharp Business Growth, if you're in survival mode, where you have to be in the weeds, you can't be in growth mode. It's almost like a binary thing.

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Deacon Bradley  

Vision is the starting point. What kind of business are you building? And how clear are you about it? There's a story that my podcast co-host told me, so my co-host and this businessman are on this jet, they were talking about different ways they can work together. Maybe start a community while doing this other thing. These are all things that my co-host specializes in. And what’s really fascinating was that this businessman was so clear about his vision that his answer was like; “Yeah, this could be really profitable, but we are a software company.” He was so clear about the fact that they were a software company and NOT a community building company, an events company, they're building software. This particular businessman had multiple businesses so it’s interesting to know how he thinks. So going back to the vision, I want you to be so clear about what it is that you're building and that you are making every decision with that vision in mind. So, step one is just be super clear about your vision because then your team can be clear about it, they'll know exactly what it is that you're trying to accomplish. 100% start with the vision, that's the first part, like, if that's my vision, what should I be focusing on? And then, what should I be measuring to make sure that I'm making progress?

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Alex Ivanoff  

Makes sense. So I guess what you're saying is, you know, if you have that vision, you can continue to focus on both growth and operations, while your team can bind to that vision and make sure that they're operating at the same mindset that you are.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yes, and as you start to figure out where you are making the biggest impact, this is where it fits into the vision. And that also empowers so many other things like, I don't necessarily care if they do it exactly the same way. But here's the vision, here's what success looks like. And as soon as you can start doing that, even if it's small tasks, you'll find things just getting done even if you didn't design them that way. And that's the magical experience where you see that your inventory management has improved, that it was better than you designed it to be. They're not just operating the tasks that you have given them. And one of the challenges and traps I see people fall into is that they hire people to just repeat what they do. But most people who start businesses are visionaries, and they're incredibly gifted at that. They're not incredibly gifted at operations, and that's okay. But if that's the case, don't hire somebody and have them just replicate exactly what you do. Because you're probably not doing it the best way.

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Alex Ivanoff  

How do you sell the vision to your employees without sounding cliche? Because if you think about the movies with the best entrepreneurs, Steve Jobs is selling the vision to his employees like, we're gonna change the world. It almost sounds cliche or superficial.

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Deacon Bradley  

Well, it certainly has to be believable. So yeah. That said, there are a lot of companies that have started and made a huge impact on the world eventually. At some point, they started with just some guy getting people on board with the vision. So you have to solve a problem that people care about. And one of the things that I talk about with my friend and colleague Zach Romero is that if your vision is a number, it's not a vision. If your vision is growing to $5 million a year, it's not a vision. Your team won’t be inspired by that. So selling it to your team is about the thing that you think you can be the best in the world at. From my experience, high-performing teams are thrilled to be a part of things that they perceive as high-performing. One of my favorite books, Good to Great, talks about the hedgehog concept; it's what can you be the best in the world at, what drives your economic engine, andt something else that I’m totally blanking on.

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Alex Ivanoff  

I read that book twice and I don't remember either. I know what you mean.

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Deacon Bradley  

That type of clarity is inspiring. People are drawn to clarity.If you can connect that to problems that you want to solve, I think that makes a huge difference.

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Alex Ivanoff  

We're going to have to take notes of this and revisit our vision as well.

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Deacon Bradley  

I'm a consultant operating on my own, but I even take time to do this because it's important for me. So as an example, I recognize that I am not the visionary CEO, I'm not the guy who's going to have that world-changing vision, that's not my MO. But I know there are tons of those people out there, and they're doing great things. And I also know that they're stuck. And they're not able to bring their vision to life because of operational challenges. And a lot of what my vision centers around is, man, if I can get out there, find those people with great visions, who are stuck in operations, and I can just unblock them from operations, then their vision can grow and change the world. And that's like one of the things I'm really excited about. And so it takes time just sitting with things and thinking about them but there is some reason that you created what you're doing, or started what you're doing and are doing it that gets you up in the morning. And a lot of times that can just seem like it's solving problems, or whatever you're facing. But if you kind of just spend time on this and rewind and think back to where did this come from originally, why does it exist, why other people care that it exists, these are elements of a good vision. They're also elements of things that are going to attract talent to your team. They're also elements of why your product should exist, and other people should buy it. So all of these things kind of blend together and create marketing and talent and something that's actually scalable, which is why I really believe that this should be done even if you're a one-man band. But certainly early on in the process. Because it's hard to grow without it, you just get too focused on just what's the next number? What's the next milestone?

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Dave Pancham  

So what's your suggestion for, like, I'm sure there's like brand new owners in the eCommerce space that kind of just started with, like, they found a winning product. And then they started to scale that and they're like, Oh, what are the complementary products to this? And it's like, the brand was just started based off of this one's profitable on Facebook, you know? Yeah. And it just grew and grew. And it's like, what the heck am I building now? Like it? Because it's like, alright, a million, 5 million, ike, what am I shooting for? Like, how does that evolution happen? Or how do you help aid that evolution to build vision?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, and you're right, I've seen this happen a ton more commonly on Amazon than any other platform. But it's, for me, it's like, alright, so somebody loves your widget? Why? What does that widget do for them? And can you just go deep enough as a marketer to uncover something? And then can you connect that to something that you're excited about, or that fits in your vision? And also, it's okay, if your vision is creating a profitable business that funds some philanthropy or some other cause or something like that, or it's like, hey, we just know how to create profitable winning scalable products, and then what do we do with those profits? Something really cool. I don't know what that is, but it could even just be, hey, you know, we're really passionate about remote work and our employees want to spend more time with their families and that's important to us, so we built this entire business to facilitate that. So don't get so stuck on like, gosh, how is my like, under the counter silicone sink mat going to change the world. Because there are other ways, other ways to connect, to connect the product, to connect the dots and just create a cool vision that people want to be a part of.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Okay, yeah, it doesn't have to be like a macro. You know, like you said, a world-changing purpose or vision. It can be.

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Dave Pancham  

Yeah but that's what I think of, it's like, we're creating a vision. It's like, it's gotta be something, you think of like Steve Jobs, like, it's got to be something that everybody is willing to work super hard for, like Elon Musk, we're going to go to Mars. And it's like, well, it's a big vision, you know, like.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, that's pretty big. So at Tier 11, a lot of the vision was that Tier 11 was the agency that I ran for a number of years. And there were a couple of components of the vision so that's a marketing agency, right. So part of that vision was involved. Hey, there are a lot of amazing products out there and we believe that great products don't win, great marketing wins. And so we wanted to find those products and help them grow. As if we can do that, more people can enjoy all these widgets. And if we grow those businesses, we're really selective about businesses. And we had kind of a manifesto about, like, what is a client that we work with, and what's a client that we don't. And if you kind of combine those two things, we knew that we were growing good businesses, where we believed in not just the products, but the owner, operator and like what they were trying to do. On the team side, we believed really strongly in remote work, it was always remote. This was way before COVID. So before the remote was cool, I guess. And, I ended up growing that team to about 40 people across 14 countries and six continents. And it was really important to us that we had this, this lifestyle, it was almost like the people on our team had like a lifestyle business without having to build a lifestyle business that makes sense. Like they could, they could be at their kids' stuff, they had flexible work hours, they could work from home, they could travel if they wanted. And so that was part of our vision as well. Half of it was team, half of it was the clients that we serve, and just kind of a little insight into how we did that.

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Dave Pancham  

And were you guys like very, like hardcore on that vision? Like, would you say no to certain clients that didn't fit that mold for you? Oh,

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Deacon Bradley  

100%. And yeah, we were, we were very clear on that, that manifesto was huge for us, because we didn't. So I guess it did two things. One, it aligned our vision with people who were actually excited about growing these brands. And that's really important. But it also protected our talent from poor experiences with clients. And that's if you run a service-based business, like that your talent is more important than your clients, by far. And so, yeah, that we just really protected that because that was an important part of how we operated. And, and, you know, I mean, just personally speaking, I had run an agency solo before and like, and there's nothing worse than working with a wrong client. Like, that's just not fun. And that applies when your business grows as well.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, or the wrong customer in any, any industry. I mean, it kind of goes back to what you were saying earlier in the beginning of the show, like know, your customer, you know.

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Dave Pancham  

I'm kind of curious about that, like, so my question ties into how that impacted Tier 11. But also like, how your philosophy has probably impacted the brands that you worked with, in terms of, did you see an impact on that on the agency side in terms of like your retention of a client, and then possibly like, with, you know, DTC brands. Do you see like a potential impact with the clients that you work with like such as like increasing their LTV, like thinking about like, because they're so aligned, you guys are so aligned like, is that, you know, it's clearly a winning formula to like, is it very measurable or how measurable is it?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, I wish I could say that there was a big correlation there. It hugely affected our business. It positively impacted retention, just because of how we operated and treated our clients, but not necessarily. Some of the other vision stuff, I don't think that that necessarily impacted retention or anything like that. Seeing inside of client businesses is kind of what led me to what I'm doing now, because I'll definitely say that I don't think they were super aware of how we ran Tier 11, all the ins and outs are, how meticulous we were about that type of stuff. But seeing inside client businesses, it was usually often a total mess. And just you know, who's available? Who can fill this, check these skill boxes kind of thing and lots of micromanaging, just like not fun work environments and not inspired teams. And so seeing inside of that, yeah, none of none of what we're doing rubbed off on clients. That's what I guess. What it also is what kind of inspired me to want to do something beyond marketing for people like the clients I was used to working with.

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Alex Ivanoff  

So one of the things you talked about Deacon is the three pillars of optimized operations. Can you tell us what those are?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, absolutely. The first pillar is people. And this is what I like to describe as a team of people who can reliably fulfill your customer needs. And here's my favorite part with minimal input from you, the business leader, right? So they're actually doing the stuff for your customers. That's, that's huge. And then there's a second component of those people when also, if you've got the right people, they will also continue building and operating systems in your business that bring your vision to life. And so that's how I like to think about people. If I'm sitting in the CEO chair, this team is, yeah, they're doing tasks. But ultimately, this team is charged with bringing your vision to life. And part of that is fulfilling what customers need. And part of that is just building systems and scaling and all of this, these other things. So the first pillar of this is people and you've got the right people, you are on the fast track to where you want to be like people are, is everything really. The second pillar of optimized operations is tools and tools, essentially, empower and equip your people so that they can actually produce higher quality work with fewer mistakes and the actual, what those tools are, it's going to be a little different in every business, there's kind of your core Industry trade tools, whether your service-based marketing agency, or whether you're like a product development, eCommerce site business, like you're gonna have different tools might need inventory management, like whatever the systems are, there are a few kind of core tools that I believe every business needs, things like a communication system. So Slack fits into this if you use it carefully. Otherwise, it can be a nightmare. Project management solutions fit into this, how do you know where all is being done in the business on time, and on budget? And then a knowledge base is kind of the other core tool that everybody needs, which is like, how do you? How do you avoid the trap of institutional knowledge? How do you persist knowledge so that when somebody new joins your team, it's not just like, oh, let me just ask Alex a million questions. And then the new guy joins and asks Alex all the same questions it's like, so that's kind of all falling into the tool bucket. And the third pillar of Operation, optimized operations, is what I like to call control. And control is what really, we've got people, we've got tools, control really ties those together in a high impact environment that high performers really thrive in. So this includes things like talent management, you've got these people on your team, how do you manage and lead them in a way that they actually perform really well and are all on the same page and all rowing in the same direction? Accountability is a big component there. And also includes, like KPIs, what are we measuring here, one of my favorite tools for that falls into this area is OKRs, which is like objectives and key results. That's a pretty popular framework, it's kind of been growing in popularity over the last, maybe, whenever Google started getting really, really huge, probably 2010-ish, they really kind of amplified OKRs. If you want to learn more about those, there's a fantastic book called Measure What Matters. But this all kind of falls under control. So you've got people, you've got your tools, control ties those things together. And that if you'd kind of just focus on those things, no matter what type of business you're running, those I have found to be kind of the core components of this.

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Alex Ivanoff  

It feels like that third one, really, like those first two are good, but they're not as effective. If you don't have that third one, would you say that?

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Deacon Bradley  

100%. People can get you really far. But what will happen without control is you will, as the CEO, you will kind of you're kind of like, flipping a coin is not the right metaphor. But you're kind of out there wondering, did they do it? Right? Are things going well, I talked to a, I was working with a CEO a couple of weeks ago. He had the people he had the tools, he didn't have the control. And so a year goes by and this CEO is like, man, this is fantastic. I was loving life, he had a COO like operations person at the helm, who was doing things but then he woke up a year later. And it's like, this isn't right. Our customer retention is like almost nothing. Like we're selling the wrong people. This isn't the vision that I was building. And so while the top line numbers looked okay, and the bottom line was fine. And he was kind of out of the day-to-day when he went back and looked at the business. He was like, What did you build? This isn't right at all. And that's the element that was missing is control. Control lets you step away as the CEO, whether that's to do more visioning or whether that's to, you know, build another business because every visionary CEO has another business they're thinking about. That control actually allows you to understand what is happening in your business, even if you're not the one pushing the buttons or sitting in front of the screen. Without that, some, it's almost like a coin flip. Like sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't, but when it works out, it's not something that I would try to replicate because part of that was luck.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, yeah, just keep flipping the coin until you get the result that you need.

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Deacon Bradley  

Eventually it will diverge from what you were trying to do, and you'll be like, what! What happened here?

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Alex Ivanoff  

So for the DTC brands listening, let's say you know, their solo team or maybe they have an assistant or to help with fulfillment or you know, customers or something like that, what's the first thing that they have to do to start building those three pillars?

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Deacon Bradley  

We mentioned this a little bit earlier. And I don't want this to, to escape the importance of it, if you are still at this solo small team level, step one, like please keep growing, you were joking earlier about sales cures everything, it's a little bit true, so, 100% do not take your eye off of that sales ball. So I just really want to emphasize that, but one of the next things I would start doing is, instead of getting really caught up and like, building out these three pillars, it's almost like we're not quite there yet. One of the next things I would really start thinking about is okay, well, where am I spending time, that is not the best use of my time. And one of my favorite tools for this is the good old fashioned time audit. And whenever I work with clients, I get really, really specific. So if we were on a consulting call right now, and you're like, Hey, I'm stuck in the weeds. I don't know how to get out, blah, blah, I'll be like, alright, Alex, what will you tell me about your day today? Or it's kind of early in the day here? What did you do yesterday? Like, what was actually like, what do you work on? We actually go through specifics, because anytime you go through general stuff, you're all Oh, yeah, but that doesn't take up much time. And while I do this, it's not a huge deal. And I want to actually know, what took your, your cognitive focus during the day. And I would probably track this for like a week or so. And oftentimes, one of the biggest problems that goes unnoticed is just this cognitive load of like, how many different things you have to be aware of, like, oh, I gotta remember to pay that invoice. Or, oh, I've got to go check on inventory. And like, I didn't have to order inventory. So that didn't really take up my time. You were thinking about it, you were worried about it, there was no system that told you about it. So like, that was one of the things that's bothering you, or keeping you up at night. And so I just really love going through that. And once you have that task list of things you want to do, alright, what did you actually do, that's the list that I want. That's the list that I want the things that you actually had to do. And then once you have that list, I would look through that and think, Alright, of this stuff, what is the stuff that only I can do? And what if, somebody knew how to do it, they could just take that off my plate. That's kind of essentially the beginnings of this job description or task list or something like that's the beginning of that stuff. And it's going to look a little different for each business owner, because you are an individual human with unique strengths and, and you want to be work, spending as much time as possible in your zone of genius. So that's kind of as you looked at that list, you'll still actively know, like, what tasks do I dread? What am I procrastinating on? Like stuff like that? What do I wish I was doing more of? So that's, that's my favorite place to start is just getting really clear on what is really taking up your time, like real life stuff, not not your kind of just generic list of things you kind of remembered from a few weeks ago,

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Dave Pancham  

How are you? How do you have your clients do a time audit? Like, are they just writing stuff down, using a tool?

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Deacon Bradley  

It's whatever works for them. The most, it's almost like the whole camera metaphor, like what's the best camera? Well, it's like the one you have with you. So it'll vary a lot. I'm like a super technical type of person. So I would have it, you know, in like a spreadsheet or like some sort of task manager thing. It'd be like logging everything. A lot of people I work with, like you can be just as effective with a pen and paper. And that's great because you don't have to, like open the app or do anything. It's just right there. So I love field notes, notebooks, I use them a lot. They're just so small, like always with you just jotting it down. So for me, it's, it's whichever system you would actually do.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Right.

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Deacon Bradley  

It doesn't need to be super fancy or organized or categorized. Like just write down all the stuff. I've had clients send me like photographs of a notepad, I've had them send me really organized bullet point lists. One of the things that I kind of help people with is like, they just dump all this stuff on me. And I look through it. And I'm like, Oh, this is interesting like this, and then we kind of like that as a starting point for a conversation. So yeah, do it whichever way you'll actually do it.

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Alex Ivanoff  

For sure. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. When I was in college, I used to think like, alright, I'm gonna start auditing my time and I was like, super tight about it. I downloaded an app on my phone. I listed out every category in which I could spend my time and there was a plethora of categories and I was trying to start a business and you know, there's, there's class, there's events on campus, there's social life, internships, reading, homework, all that stuff as a student, and I was literally like tracking every single minute of the day and then I drove myself crazy, right. And I was like, this isn't sustainable. You know, I did it for maybe six months. 

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That's like Tim Ferriss' level right there.

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Right, right. And eventually I don't think humans, maybe someone can, but not, most humans can't do that, right. So it's really like whatever you're most comfortable with. If you have to simplify it more than I was doing, then absolutely do it that way. You know what I mean?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, simplified is great. Like, it doesn't have to be even close to that. I mean, even just a rough bullet point list that you did at the end of the day would be better than what you have now.

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Alex Ivanoff  

For sure. Yeah, the best estimation you can come up with and most people like, that's, that's their first thing they think of? And I'm sure that's why they've asked that question, too, because people are like, how do I even do a time audit? I feel like I would not do it correctly. It's like, you know, Done is better than the perfect type of thing.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, if you're one of those people thinking, I'll never do that. If I were to come up with the simplest solution possible, I would probably say, an alarm that goes off, either at the end of the day, or maybe midday and end of the day, and then just opens like a voice recorder, like an otter or something. And just be like, here's some of the stuff I was working on the last whatever. So you just have a transcript of what you did. I mean, that would probably take three minutes.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah. Almost like a journal. You know?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah.

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Dave Pancham  

So much of that question was definitely rooted from my own personal stuff.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Same thing. Everybody thinks that when they get asked that question, you know.

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Dave Pancham  

And I'm totally the kind of person that's like, you know, comes up with those answers. I'm like, well, I was doing that, but that's, that's not a big deal. You know, like I say, that kind of stuff. Like, time auditing is definitely the thing to do.

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Deacon Bradley  

Maybe I should call it something other than auditing, because this audit word implies what you were talking about Alex, where it's, like, rigorous, everything is, like, buttoned up, and then there's, you know, it's there's gonna be accounting involved or something. Like, it's very much not that maybe it should just be a time, like a list of things you did.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, Yeah, that's not a not a very sexy word for being super simple. But one of the things in today's point, like, so many people struggle with this, to reflect on the real reality of like, what you're spending your time on, and what you shouldn't be spending your time on, and how that kind of, you know, accumulates and compounds. One of the simplest things I like to tell people is, if you every 10 minutes a day, you know, workday that you spend on something over the course of a year, that's 40 hours of the year, right. So if you're doing something that takes you 10 minutes a day, every work day of the year, that's a whole work week, every year, you know, so it really,

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Deacon Bradley  

Oh, man!

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Alex Ivanoff  

It really, and people are like, wow, you know what I mean? So 10 That's why like, if I spend 10 minutes on something, or I'm talking to someone 10 minutes a day over something stupid, I'm like, I'm sorry, we got to make this three minutes. You know what I mean? It's like, this is gonna really take up the time of your life and time is like, the most valuable currency that we have. And so I think once people start to realize those things, it really helps with that mindset, you know?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, 100% I gotta give you one other log that I would just mix this in, mix this in with your "things I did today" list, just change the name of that right now, we'll come up with something better. Mix this in with what questions that people ask you. That's a really big one. If you're solo, it's probably nothing. But as soon as you start to get a team, people will start asking you questions and those are like little signposts to things only, you know.

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Alex Ivanoff  

We gotta get on another call with you, Deacon, we gotta definitely. We got to talk, you know, one on one type of stuff. This is gonna be super helpful.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, not until, not until Dave's audit is done.

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Alex Ivanoff  

I feel like we're being personally-attacked. So, so on the topic of personal stuff, because, you know, Deacon, doing this with a bunch of different companies and, it's very hard to, you know, really dive into people's operations. So on this topic, you know, you have to be a high performer, it sounds like you, yourself, strive to be a very high-performing individual. And, you know, it sounds like you're like you have to be there's no other option. What's your secret as an individual?

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Deacon Bradley  

You kind of brought this metaphor up earlier. I don't know if it's a metaphor or a historical sports lesson. Michael Jordan playing baseball, right. So my first advice is to play the right sport. And for me, that was like, oh, like, turns out I'm in my zone of genius and doing all this stuff. So I, one of my secrets to high performance is how can I do more of that? And that was really at the root of why I left agency land and started doing this. Because as that grew, I was spending less time in my zone of genius. And so I was like, man, I want to know how I can spend more time? Well, I think for now, anyway, the way that I can do that is by being an independent consultant and actually choosing and refining that zone of genius, a little bit more. So that's kind of my first component is like, just get really clear on what you do the best, what's your favorite stuff to do? And then just think like, what's keeping me from doing that more? My theory is, if I can spend, if I can get to 80% of time spent in my zone of genius, I won't really have any other worries, whether that's team, or money, or whatever it might be, I just wholeheartedly believe that if I'm able to operate in my zone of genius, I'll be at such a high level that that other stuff will work itself out somehow.

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Dave Pancham  

So question here.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Makes sense.

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Dave Pancham  

What if, what if you can't quite isolate your zone of genius, because you're one, good at multiple things? Or two, like yeah, probably it's just like, you're just good at multiple things within the business?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, that's, I think you haven't gone deep enough. I, just to put this in perspective, this isn't like a journal, weekend journaling type activity, I hired a coach, and I worked with this guy for probably a year. And then I finally felt like I had some clarity on it. And then and when I say that, it's, it's gonna sound like, oh, well, then I might as well not even try. Well, over the course of that year, I was gaining clarity and gaining clarity and I'd try things out and be like, Oh, this is it. Oh, look, I can refine it even more. And so it really, really helps to have a third party involved, whether that's your business partner, or someone on your team, or another CEO, colleague, or, or even a coach who is gifted at this type of thing. So that's, I guess, how I approached it, because I was the same way as you, Dave. Like, I was essentially running the agency, I ran a paid traffic team. I built and ran a reporting and analytics team, I built and ran a customer service team, and I built and ran a creative thing team of all things like I'm not a creative person, like I can't, I can't do like visual graphics or anything, but I built around that team too. And I'm looking at this going, what in the world do I do, because like, I'm capable of figuring out a lot of stuff. So I couldn't ever figure out exactly what it was and for me, it was like going deeper and deeper until just I guess, as a, to give us a more specific example, one of mine is order out of chaos. Like that is just how I operate. And I do that in business through operations. But I also do that around my house. Like, if I see something that should be done better, like I cannot resist fixing or improving it. Like I can't, I can't avoid it.

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Alex Ivanoff  

This is where I feel like you and I relate a lot. It's like that perfectionism really helps being an operator, right?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, it's so it's clues like that, like one of my favorite questions, what can, what can you not avoid doing? Like, what can't, what can't you stop doing it? Because there's something where you're like, just compelled, like, I have to do this, this needs to be improved. And it's not your job, no one asked you to do it, you're not getting paid for it. But it's just like this, I have to do this. And for me, that's improving things and creating order out of chaos. And I think one of the ways you'll know you're getting closer to your zone of genius, is, it can be applied outside of your business. Like your zone of genius is you as a person, it's not like a job. So I can apply mine in operations and business. But there's lots of other ways that I apply it too, organizing my fridge in my house like that, where it's like, gosh, you know, this is really lame that you have to reach for this all the time. Or like, why is the kitchen laid out this way? Like, it just creates collisions, there's got to be a better way. Right? So it's, it's those types of things where it's like, so it might even be helpful to start looking outside of your business. Like what do I what am I drawn to? And are there any clues here that lead me to what I'm uniquely gifted and good at?

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, this is where I think you, it's a good thing to have, but it can conflict with partnerships, right, like ask Dave or ask anyone that is close to me. I drive them crazy with my obsession to make things better or perfect like Dave all the time. It's like, oh, this is good. I like it, but this can be better. You know what I mean? Like I drove him crazy. And you know, people, like you said in your personal life in your kitchen, like they're gonna go your spouse is gonna go nuts. Right, but I think it's a good thing to have as long as you can kind of manage it and moderate it a little bit.

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Deacon Bradley  

100% Please don't take any of this as marriage advice, I've been married for 14 years. I don't actually optimize everything in my house. A big part of this is knowing when to not do it.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Do Yeah, for sure. That's the best way to put it right knowing when to and when not to? So I want to also talk about the, what we were talking about earlier, how, oh, I'm losing my train of thought, let's, let's move on, I'll come back, um, who would you say is the best, the best operator that you know, like an entrepreneur or like a business person, whether you know them personally, or, you know, just someone that you know, is a celebrity, or, you know.

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Deacon Bradley  

So celebrity ones are easier to think of, because those are people that I'm used to learning from from books and talks, and just their methods have kind of proliferated through our industries. And so it's easier to find and identify those. And there's really two that come to mind. In this category the most. The first one I mentioned is OKRs. Earlier, the objectives and key results, that framework, that framework actually came from a guy named Andy Grove, he was the CEO of Intel, and probably like the go-go days of, hey, microprocessors and computers are really starting to take off and grow here. And so Andy Grove was phenomenal and how he led that business. And just as an example, this is a gigantic organization. And there's this one story where they talk about just the power of a great operator. And this framework that Andy used, was one of their competitors. And Intel wasn't on top during the story, okay. They were like, they're a powerhouse now. But they weren't always like they were kind of like, they had a lot of competition, they had some products that were like not selling quite as well. And there was a story where they had the, one of their competitors came out with something that was just eating their lunch, and they were like, in trouble. And so Andy Grove puts his team together and leads them as an operator. And within two weeks, this organization had created an entirely new way to sell their product and had already made huge headway in launching that and selling the thing. And it completely turned around the whole way, the whole, like the financial results of that division. The project was called Orange Crush, for those of you out there listening and thinking, like, what did he do, like, go find the details about that. But he's an incredible operator. And then kind of the guy who really, I guess, kind of made Andy famous is named John Doerr. And he was a Kleiner Perkins VC. He was a really early adviser to Google. And so that's kind of, he kind of, he wrote that book I mentioned earlier, Measure What Matters. So those are probably as far as operations go. Those are two of the strongest, in my opinion, I just and just as a software guy, for me, I'm really drawn to the microprocessor and software operations stuff. So that's probably why it particularly resonates with those guys.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, that's a great answer. A lot of people don't know that Intel wasn't always number one, right. Like IBM used to be huge.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, they were, they were crushing them. Yeah.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, it's only as of late and now Intel's facing even stiffer competition from like Apple and Nvidia you know, and all the others.

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Deacon Bradley  

I know. It's gonna be really interesting to see where this goes. But then then you have Apple who, just as a side story, went and built an unfixable architectural problem into their first microprocessor the M1. And we'll see if the M2 has it when it actually comes out.

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Alex Ivanoff  

What's fun fixable about it?

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Deacon Bradley  

There is, so there's this concept in the microprocessor that validates, that validates like memory locations, and they messed theirs up, meaning that a hacker can access areas of memory where they should not be allowed. What's interesting is that this is actually a hardware function, it is not a software function. It is like a hardware system that is actually validating addresses against, it has some logic that is literally built into logic gates and switches there. So you can't patch it.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Well this is terrifying because I'm on a M1 Mac computer. I guess I'm gonna have to upgrade to the M2 when it comes out. It's crazy how they haven't talked about this like they're not like buying back the M1 chips or you know, asking to replace them with the M2. I mean, obviously that's super hard to do.

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Deacon Bradley  

It's happened before. It's happened to Intel so it's not like they're immune to it but, yeah, I mean, Intel has been building chips for a long, long time.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Well, for anyone listening, don't buy an M1.

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Deacon Bradley  

And also we don't know if the M2 has fixed the problem yet.

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Alex Ivanoff  

This is scary.

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Deacon Bradley  

This was discovered after the M2 was announced. M2 should be coming out soon I think. Nobody's actually gotten their hands on one. So when they get their hands on it, that's the first thing everyone's gonna be looking at. I'm thinking, did they already know about the flaw and fix it? Or did they release a second generation with a security flaw?

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Alex Ivanoff  

This is super off topic, but should I be scared?

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Deacon Bradley  

I probably would not be. I didn't actually dig into what they would do or whatnot, but generally speaking, like, yeah, I don't know, security is not even something I paid all that much attention to. I don't even know why I know that.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah. I didn't even know about it either. I'm kind of wishing I didn't.

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Deacon Bradley  

So okay, it probably came out within the last seven days.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Oh, really? Okay. Yeah, cuz they just announced the empties, like last week, earlier this week or something. Okay, so back to operators, you know, we talked about the two that you mentioned. And we were talking about, like staying in your zone of genius and all these different, like, self awareness type of things. I think for me, I would say that the most important important personality trait of a good operator of you know, a seven or eight figure business is self awareness, because it takes that to be able to conduct all the different things that we kind of just talked about, but what would you say, is the most successful or sorry, important personality trait or strength that someone needs to have? Like, if I'm hiring an operator, right? Like, what do I look for?

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Deacon Bradley  

Well, first, I feel like I have to address the one that you just shared, because I love it that self awareness one. I had, I can't remember where I saw this study. But there was one where it was like, alright, what's one of the most important components of a successful leader? Like we're answering this question about an operator, what should I look for? This is kind of like, alright, same question applied to just leadership in general. And it actually was self awareness, believe it or not, like that was the component that would make somebody good as a leader. As an operator, I think one of my biggest ones, and I don't know how to sum this up into one trait, but that ability to think at a very high strategic level and see 5 to 10 years down the road, depending on your industry, and then be able to take that down to a decision that you make today. And is that congruent or not? To me, that's probably one of the biggest ones. And to, I want to contrast that against what a lot of people aim for with an operator, which is what I always call like, a glorified project manager. Operations is not just keeping the train on the track, and persisting things that are already running. Great operations is really about bringing that vision to life. And if the vision doesn't exist, right, that's why, that's why you're still operating as a business and growing is because you're like working towards that vision. So your operator needs to be capable of seeing that vision in the future and knowing what steps to take today that lead towards it. And this is really important, just to go back to, the show has nothing to do with software but it's coming up. Just to go, I have a friend who was a marketer, who recently learned software development. And key, one of the things that really struck him was that the importance of decisions you make in the earliest earliest days can completely decide whether or not you are even able to take a path years later. It has to do with like, how did you design the database? Like how, what data are you even collecting, all of those decisions have to be made. And if you make the wrong one, it can compromise your vision. And so a good operator at the highest level needs that ability to see five years down the road and understand decisions and choices they make today, how it impacts that. And that is completely different from a project manager who can keep the trains running on the track. Like they're great at operating. no disrespect. It's a hugely important skill. It's largely focused on now and keeping now going where an operator I think, is able to do that and look forward and make decisions about now that get to where you want to go, if that makes sense.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, for sure. I mean, the simplest way is like making sure every day that you're not like a chicken with its head cut off, right? Like you know where you're going, and you can relate it. Self awareness again, it's like you're aware of what you're doing every day and you're like, Oh, this is congruent with that five-year vision. What would you say is like for a DTC brand? Could you give us a good example of how someone might want to stay on track?

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Deacon Bradley  

I need some clarity on this question so we'll have to edit a part of this. Stay on track. Like can you ask that a different way?

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Alex Ivanoff  

So for a DTC brand, right they have their five year vision and they have to constantly, every day, make sure that what they're doing every day and setting those short-term goals is congruent with that long-term vision. What can be like, what example for someone building that vision?

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Deacon Bradley  

An example that comes to mind is, it's been a while since I worked with this client, but they were building, so some of the details are flooding back to me slowly as I process this sentence, so I hope they all, all the details, make it in here, they were essentially building a cleaning products company. And they had marketers on their team who were selling the product like, oh, you know, this, this will clean your house, whatever. Like it's really, it's a good cleaner, and it doesn't have chemicals in it. So it's like another way to clean without harsh chemicals and you don't want those in your house. That was kind of how the marketing was going. It was working. It was fine. But what the leadership was realizing was that's not the business they're building. They're not building a cleaning products business. They're building a business that allows you to create an incredible, imagine like you open up a modern house magazine, and you're like, these spaces look amazing. They were a company allowing people, empowering people to create those spaces that are luxurious, and they just always look and feel luxurious. Alright, well, what does a cleaning product have to do with that? Well, yeah, you want things clean, but it's how you clean them. So are there fingerprints on your stuff, after you clean your stainless steel or whatever, they are eliminating that with their cleaning products, so that when you use their product, it would be fingerprint resistant now, so it always looked like it had just been cleaned. Now, the reason I share this example is like, alright, as an operator you need to be, this is, I mean, vision is coming into this to you to be really clear about what they're building. It's not a Lysol competitor. It is like a luxury product brand that helps people enjoy their spaces more. And so I guess, as far as looking further down the road, that's an example I would bring up because that little difference that I just gave, right there will inform what's your next product? How do you market this? Where should you be investing in your branding and stuff like is branding important? It's pretty important. If you're building that luxury product brand, you can probably get by with some lower quality branding, or a totally different type of branding, if you're aiming for just you know, the Lysol competitor or whatever. So I guess that's an example that comes to mind, where just being super clear on where you're going years from now, even if you can't, even if you're nowhere near the product development of that second, third, and fourth product, just knowing how it lines up affects how you sell this first one. So that when the second one comes out, you have sold it to the right people, and they want to buy the second one.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, you know, so many times you see entrepreneurs, visionaries, they seem they tell you about their business and their life and what they're working on and what they want to do and just listening them if you especially if you don't know them, right, it sounds like they're so scatterbrained, and you watch Shark Tank, and the sharks like, you know, shit all over the entrepreneurs that are like, oh, I want to do this, that and the other thing, and it's like, I'm not investing in you, you can't focus on one thing, right? Or your vision is not clear, right? You're constantly doing things and it's like, how do you listen to this guy, you know? So I think that's definitely something to keep in mind. Like, stay on, stay on the track that you go, you know?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, 100%.

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Alex Ivanoff  

What would you say? In terms of operational challenges, because we've talked about a few. What's the hardest thing that you could possibly face? And how do you avoid it from happening if that's even possible, right? There's so many, so many ones that come to mind for me, it's like staff turnover, lack of funding, poor brand reputation, cybersecurity issues, we face that, right? Like, how do you? How do you prevent the most difficult ones? And what would you say it is?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, that's a good question. My brain immediately goes towards things just kind of thinking out loud here. My brain immediately goes towards things like cash flow, inventory management, or oh, my margins are too low. And these are problems I see commonly. What's interesting, though, is that I don't think they're necessarily the hardest to solve. Meaning like they happen, they happen all the time. So like, how would you solve a low margin product? Well, you either sell a whole whole lot of them, or you find a way to sell at a higher price one a marketing solution, and the other one is more like a working capital type solution, but both solutions are out there. And it's kind of like, just being really intentional in deciding which way you want to go. Where I think it gets harder is when people put constraints on themselves. So for example, I need to sell a high volume of these, but I'm unwilling to take on a capital partner. Well, you're never gonna have, you're never gonna find it enough to actually like, grow past this, this level. So like, that's an, that's the type of problem I'm initially tempted to say, wow, that's a really hard operation. But really, I don't think it is, I think people just kind of constrain them in. And that makes it hard. It's like an unwillingness to use the solutions that are out there. That doesn't necessarily make it a hard problem to solve, in my opinion. Here's the answer that I actually think is the hardest one to solve. And that's culture change. You mentioned staff turnover, like that's a symptom of culture change. To have culture change, work, it's a slow process, you have to be committed, if you want a team of high performers, and you're looking around going, gosh, that's not what I have now. Like, there's gonna have to be a culture change, you're gonna have to start introducing accountability. It's one of my clients right now, that accountability scared off a team member that had been there for eight years that they depended on. Wow, that was a little bit of a problem. But so that's why I think it's one of the harder challenges. Now fast forward two months, he's actually been replaced, and they're in way better shape. And it turned out to not be that it was scary at first. But I think culture change is probably the hardest one, it requires absolute commitment from the leadership of the business. There will probably be some turnover and your team, it's a little bit slow for the results to come through. But it's kind of like if you're dreaming of this high performance team as a business that runs itself and can like, build, even when you're on vacation. Like you've got to go through that at some point.

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Alex Ivanoff  

That's a great answer. I can't imagine starting over, right? The culture or like, scrapping it, it's almost like gutting a house, and like doing it all over. You know, it's terrifying.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, that's a good metaphor. And you have to like living in the house while it's being remodeled.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Yeah, you gotta live in a company with life, without a culture. Terrifying, right? I mean, it's also hard, just without changing it, just instilling a culture, you know, so to change it, or having a poor culture is, I would agree, that's a good operational challenge.

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, it's 100%. doable, though. And it always pays dividends in my experience.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Fair enough. Yeah. So, Deacon,  as we begin to wrap up here, one of the things we ask every guest, as a wrap up question to get an insight into you. If you could sit in a room every morning with a bunch of mentors that can help guide you and advise you on your day and what you're working on. That could be alive or dead. Who would you pick?

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Deacon Bradley  

Oh, man, this is, let's see. I think one of the ones I would pick is probably Michael Hyatt. He's one of my favorite business leaders. He's a Yeah, he's just a really gifted leader and really clear thinker. He would 100% He would definitely be one of them. The second one I'm going to pick is an old colleague of mine, his name is Jason Cohen. He's probably largely unknown. He's the founder and CTO of WP Engine. And I had the blessing of working with him through kind of like the beginnings of that WP Engine.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Is that WordPress?

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Deacon Bradley  

Yeah, so WordPress hosting company. Yeah.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Wow.

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Deacon Bradley  

And he is, I mean, gosh, just read his blogs. He's an incredibly gifted thinker, and just a clear thinker. And so anytime talking to Jason is like, man, that's fascinating. So those two in my office, I think I'd be in way better shape. And then the last one I'm gonna pick is my podcast co-host. And, gosh, he was my personal coach for a couple of years before that. Justus Murimi has just incredible insight into just heart, and he was the person who helped me discover the zone of genius and refine it. And to have somebody like that sitting in my office at the same time just helping me make decisions like the extreme logic of Jason Cohen, the leadership gifts of Michael Hyatt, and then somebody telling me like, Deacon don't forget, this is you like that would be a pretty powerful combination. I think that's awesome.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Gotta put a super team together where everyone's keeping each other balanced and put all the pieces of the puzzle together. Right? So good answers, good answers. So, Deacon, where can the audience and listeners follow you or get to know you, or learn about Sharp Business Growth and everything you got going on?

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Deacon Bradley  

My home base is SharpBusinessGrowth.com. I'm starting to put up more articles up there, just to rebuild the website for fun.

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Alex Ivanoff  

I noticed that. I was, I looked at it when we first talked a couple of months ago. And then I revisited it, you know, this week as prepping for the show. And I was like, Is this the same site? I'm so confused.

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Deacon Bradley  

No, it's a totally different site. I built it on Webflow just because, you know, I can't escape my software roots and long story short, I'm heading towards headless CMS land because I believe that is the future. And I just want to experiment with that. So you can find me at my home base and SharpBusinessGrowth.com. That's where I kind of keep links to everything. I have a podcast called Sharp Business Growth as well. And you'll find anything I've written, recorded, and links to social profiles you can find there.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Nice, just SharpBusinessGrowth.com. Very, very simple. Spelled all correctly. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Deacon. Like I said from the beginning. I enjoyed this a lot. Personally, I'm an operator at heart. I know, a lot of visionaries and operators are going to benefit from this knowing the difference between the two and how to balance each other out and you know, all the personal things that go into that, and the hard skill sets. So thank you so much. This has been great.

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Dave Pancham  

Thanks, Deacon.

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Deacon Bradley  

This was fun. Thank you guys for having me.

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Alex Ivanoff  

Sure. Thanks, Deacon. See you next time.

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